Leaderboard

Can't believe there are people here who would support someone slinging profanities and racist/homophobic/transphobic remarks like it was their mother-tongue. Y'all give us OG Renegade players a bad name. Also, you didn't deserve to deal with that shit Agent. Immature devs like Cronus deserve to crash and burn along with their attitudes. The game be damned, but optimally you and your team would want your years of work retrieved. I wish you guys best of luck.

More updates are coming soon, but it seems important to explain what's going on with the website at least. Back in May, the server hosting the website was illegally stolen as part of a hostile takeover performed by select members of the team. Instead of immediately working to replace the infrastructure that was stolen, the domain continued to point at the same server while discussions took place in order to maintain cohesion of the development team and allow for continuity. An agreement was eventually reached that seemed amicable to all parties and seemed like it would be adhered to, however recently they were found in blatant violation of that agreement. When reached out to to try to resolve that breach, there was no interest in resolving that breach of agreement in any capacity or otherwise negotiating a new agreement (possibly just with the violated condition axed, they never offered that or made any offer in any form), and they in fact chose to issue a ban 1 week later instead as a direct response to trying to resolve those issues. As a result of this, as well as other acts, team cohesion has deteriorated since May in a way that was completely unprecedented and unexpected. The goal here is to salvage what can be, to restore a functional team, and to continue to attempt to reach out to reach a new agreement. Efforts have been exhaustive to try to resolve issues, but unfortunately to no avail or, in most cases, even response. It seems the select developers who have forced this fork of the project have no interest in the project itself. Consequently, new infrastructure is now being setup to support the project. A new server list was setup immediately to allow players to continue to play the game, and this website is being restored to the greatest capacity possible. Updates and development will continue to be posted on this website. None the less if they proceed with their fork, best wishes are extended and hopefully it'll be a great success.

It's not really possible to reply meaningfully here, because you keep just attaching additional meanings to my words that I obviously don't mean (aka: shoving words in my mouth), and keep trying in insult me personally by attacking my character, but without backing any of it it up with... anything. It feels bizarre, especially your last paragraph there, which is essentially the opposite of the reality, but by attaching additional meanings you conflate two very different issues as one (i.e: DAs not enforcing criminal law against 1 guy is very very different from ability to present a case in civil court against a business and its owners). You have a good life though.

It's a forum. That's it. This website does not distribute any games, nor provide any services, except this forum. There's no associated Discord server. It's been put up in case someone might find it useful. If someone has a better website idea feel free to shoot, putting this backup back up from some months ago is really just the lowest effort idea.

I am not allowing any use of the reborn asset in what you try to do agent. Same goes for most models and logos you don’t own. So unless you can replace those I strongly advise you to remove them in the next 7 days. I support and authorise only my work on the release and staff that works with Fobby. Thank you for your comprehension.

Sorry for the late reply, I'm just now seeing this. I don't check as often as I used to 😅 I could, I should, and I'm pretty sure I'd win, but honestly... I don't think I will at this point. Up until about maybe a year or so ago I had genuinely planned to, but it kind of just fizzled out as life got busy again (changed jobs, moved cities/states, sold house, etc etc). I might still send in relevant DMCA notices from time to time until the end of time or until they decide to formally apologize as an organization, but that's probably about it. Although I'm absolutely disgusted with that entire group beyond repair, there just isn't much to get out of a case that I actually want, so there isn't much of a point. Like, what would I achieve, some judgement against a few deadbeats who probably can't even afford the attorney's fees? What's the point in that? Plus, maybe the position they've put themselves in with regards to Cronus is punishment enough. People do tend to eventually reap what they sow. Thanks for the words of support though, from everyone on here, on Discord, in DMs, etc. It's been really encouraging and really did help restore some faith in humanity, which goes a long way towards better personal health. One of the most painful feelings in the world is the idea that just nobody cares, and people voicing support really helped mitigate that just a little. ❤️ Edit: A comic I found relatable to the experience, especially early on, though maybe I didn't at all succeed in not responding/reacting haha:

Just as an Update, Cronos has changed their name to Anubis and they are still part of the project. Though they jokingly said they keep them locked away. You either possess the will to provide other basic respect, or you possess the right to be considered a piece of shit.

I'm just a passerby, never played renegade-x or plan to (big c&c fan though lol). I'm sorry you had to experience that. There exist good communities, good people out there. Most randos (like me) who see content like the stuff you posted the other side saying would obviously realize how abusive it is. Don't get gaslit into thinking any of it is normal or healthy. Anyway, wish you the best!

Yikes. I've played renegade x in the past, thought about hopping back on and read through this entire thread. So, i'm kind of surprised this type of behavior is considered acceptable on a professional level. On a CONSENSUAL casual level between friends is one thing. On a Professional level this is absurd, mans should of been reprimanded in the very least.

pls help me

Yeah, alt-right is an understatement, this is like 4-chan and Twitter had an unholy incest baby and gave it to the military to be trained to give the public a reason to hate the enemy if you know what I mean, they are the kind of people to be admins of the site "suicide solutions" for fun. These take enjoyment from hurting other people and should not be allowed to have any form of power. I wish you the best in your legal case, Agent.

how can i get the game

You are describing exactly your behaviour and your character and how you treated others. You shouldn't be surprised that others are now doing the same to you.

Their “side” is to literally hide posts and ban anyone who talks negatively about them, and to never own up to any mistakes. It’s a joke.

God checking in to see this is a bummer but if anything i feel like you shouldn't have had to face this Agent and something should have changed a long time ago. This treatment is beyond unacceptable. Let me be clear to anyone who thinks this is remotely okay. The behavior Cronus demonstrates here would be an automatic ban from any community I have ever been a part of across multiple political, social, and interest groups. I don't give two shits about any of the ideas, views, or concepts of 'just don't be upset by words'. If you cant make even a token attempt to work with someone who is offended by words most people would consider offensive and are classified by most entities, social, corporates, and political, as slurs, then you are not offering basic human respect.

"It was meant to be but in a funny way" Why can't he just say "KICK ME IN THE TEETH! I NEED SOMEONE TO MAKE ME SUFFER!!!" It takes a lot less mental gymnastics and gets the same results. Honestly, people who take pleasure from other people's suffering should be destroyed on a fundamental level, have their entire existence removed from this world and all others, every achievement, every memory, everything that is proof to their existence erased. Bottom line: People who think hurting other people is funny should die painfully. I'm not trying to be edgy, that's just how I feel.

What a shame is to read people treat you like this. Like for real, someone tried to make you chose which of all the bad things that happened to you are worse. Like if that even matters. Not gonna lie. I think that if "it's childish" to "hold hostage a game" so be it. Serves them well. If it's within your capability are doing it without breaking any law then you should do it. Not only by the fact that other people are making profit of your creation without an actual specified set of rules in a contract that allowed them to do so, but also because they're very mean. Some people just learn the hard way. People keep talking about you not being the creator and "taking personal something that x person said", yet that doesn't really matters when it comes down to answer the question of are you entitled to something for your work and time spent on this project. People can and WILL judge you in hilarious ways. It's not worth your time. The only person who decides if something Cronus said it's mean or not it's you (Eventually will be a judge who decides, but meanwhile, your opinion is the only one that matters).

I'm glad this is the first post you see when looking up the game. If the current devs behind the game really are alt-right trash, I'm glad I got prior warning before wasting my time getting invested. Sorry to hear you had so much shit flung your way.

Just learned about all this today. Sorry you had to go through all that, Agent. Cronus seems insufferable. Hopefully you will get some kind of justice. EDIT: I forgot to mention I was really disappointed when I read a post on here saying that "most gay people wouldn't be offended" over the continued use of homophobic slurs. I don't know why people continue to conduct themselves in this way.

Ohhh noooo, I just found out about this project and apparently it just got scrapped... 😭 I have such fond memories of playing this game with friends in high school. It's a shame it got halted; from the videos it looked great. This bums me out enormously.

https://discord.com/invite/7Yp3HXg link to C&C Online Discord, there you can ask for technical issues regarding C&C 3 MP

When making such accusations as you do, you should think very carefully about the words one choose. That is what you are measured by and I am firmly convinced that you really believe that you are the owner of the source code. IIRC one of the demands to TA was to restore the SVN and its content because that was "your property". This implies that you think you own it based on your own statements. Its content was never your property, at most small parts of it. It is probably possible to argue about how high the share really is in a voluntary project where individual topics are started, continued by others and finished by others. Of course you do, it was unfortunately quite clear that you would deny what behaviors you have. You have a completely false self-image and a false perception of the outside world. You are probably the reason why many Devs and Members and also Players left. Because of your abuse of power. The fact that you keep diverting to your desired topic does not change this and is part of your cancel culture mentality and character. But I have to admit one thing, I really do believe you think that you are right about all this and that you are just giving an accurate account of ALL that has happened over the years and this is the truth. But sad news: It isn't. But hey, if even all the lawyers tell you, you won't succeed with legal action. Then I would just leave it at that and looking forward to new things and move on. Because you will hardly be able to reach an agreement if you can't take legal actions.

I fully deny anything described here, and if I hadn’t heard it before when they were making up excuses for their actions after the fact, would be insulted. One of the most consistent criticisms in terms of moderation was not doing enough, rather than doing so much that it became abuse. Balancing those complaints from people against the culture of leniency I encouraged was exceedingly difficult. And again, I don’t think there is any equivalency here. If you assume the worst of me and the best of them, they’re still the thieves, not me. Imperfect moderation decisions I didn’t really want to be a part of, but was forced to be, don’t come anywhere close to actual theft. Which, to reemphasize the point on not telling “half truths” and to emphasize how certain I have to be in something to be saying it at all, I focus on the thefts because they’re unambiguous. If I were to say their LLC was fraudulently founded, as an example, I would have to do more research and I would want an attorney to agree with me before I would even accuse them of fraud outright. That is the degree to which I am certain property was stolen from me. I’ve received multiple legal opinions on that matter at this point, and they all agreed. Unfortunately they also all consistently said that it was too complex of an issue to bother a local DA with, and not significant enough to bother feds with (this isn’t exactly a multimillion dollar revenue game here). They consistently indicated I’d have to settle for just pecuniary justice. I’m definitely rambling at this point but the point I was trying to make was: I’m really not making any of this shit up, and I’ve done everything I could think of to try to prove that. Whether folks believe that or choose not to anyways, is entirely out of my control. I’d encourage you to not chalk it off as a “strange world view”, though.

I feel like you’re attaching a lot more meaning to what I said than what I meant. Very literally, I own the things I put on my servers. As in, I definitely own my own contributions, unambiguously. I own the work I personally did. At no point did I ever give ownership of my own contributions to another party, and at no point did I consent to the removal of those works, particularly my own works, from my servers. I think folks who don’t know me well are much more likely to say the kinds of things you described. I’m outspoken at times, but hardly 'domineering', and I genuinely do not believe I’m stating any half truths here. I am being genuine. If I didn’t genuinely believe the things I say whole-heartedly, I simply wouldn’t be saying them. I really do think Cronus is a thief. I really don’t think he is trustworthy enough to do anything at all. What more context do you want from me? My entire PM history with the guy? I can’t access any of the channels half of those messages were in, only the PMs. You’d have to get context from TA for the other ones. I posted context for like every single PM though and would be happy to provide context for the rest if I were able. I’ll sound like a broken record though if I say Cronus tends to post mine without context though, including to my boyfriend. When I posted context later on, the reaction was essentially “oh. That makes a lot more sense.”

If one were to follow your reasoning, the content of an SVN repository would belong to the hoster. This is complete nonsense, because just someone provides a repository hosting for source code, it does not mean that it become the owner of the source code. That is fact. You mix up half-truths with your own strange world view. Your behaviour in the team was, according to the reports I know, more than questionable. A domineering person who wants to control everything and have all powers, denounces others when you didnt liked their attitudes. Then it is also okay to travel statements out of context (we can see that with your Cronus screenshots), to engage in power abuse to kick/ban people and to destroy evidence which also happend against community members.

And I hope the above post sort of sums up just how absurd the idea is that I still want to actively be there. I want to actively be there about as much as I want to be friends with the folks who robbed my home. That is to say, not at all. What I want are wrongs made right, or at least a genuine attempt to do so. Part of that is holding that man responsible for his actions and conduct. I seriously doubt the guy's become a saint since then.

C. Being robbed. I've been told to leave somewhere before. That's not upsetting for very long. I can find better places to be with better people. I've been called many many many things before. Those are normally not difficult to handle or brush off or whatever. Normally, it's not something carried out over many years by the same person after asking them to stop repeatedly. Normally I'd cut contact, or the other person would be banned long before that point. No other human being on this planet has called me a faggot for as long as that man. I've been robbed before, with 3 key moments coming to mind. One incident involved cash, but was understandable, and easy to forgive as a one-off. Another incident involved cash, but was petty and unnecessary, so trust was permanently hurt. The worst incident though was a full-scale burglary of the house I grew up in, while we were out of state visiting grandparents. Anything even remotely of value was taken, the interior of the house was vandalized, it was just awful, traumatic even. We learned later that they'd planned to burn down the house. It was carried out by someone we trusted, and a couple of his friends. They were never forgiven. They went to prison for that. They were held responsible. The reason and degree to which I'm upset, is most similar to that last incident. Instead of banking information and gaming consoles (small example, obviously much more was taken) being stolen, accounts and virtual servers and data were stolen. Instead of the walls of a house being vandalized, a physical server I own had all of its data destroyed and the server had to be wiped. Instead of not knowing about it until we came home and seeing the home wrecked, I saw the tail end of things happening in real time and immediately knew who was responsible. The person most responsible was the same person who'd harassed me for years, who I had put real effort into getting along with despite that fact. That's the kind of trust that can never be fully repaired. There's not an equivalency of wrongs or equivalency of malice here. I never lied about or exaggerated what was stolen. I never took a single thing from them, even when I very much so had the opportunities. I never hurt them. I didn't seek revenge. I offered help more than once. I gave them almost everything they needed, and most of what they wanted. I went above and beyond and out of my way to ensure players wouldn't be impacted. They chose to steal until there was nothing left they could steal. They chose to vandalize. They chose to support the bigot who carried out those misdeeds. They chose to lie to themselves first and foremost, but also to others. They could try to make things right. They choose not to. Instead, they continue to steal by continuing to distribute software they do not have the right to. They've chosen to continue stealing. They've been given many options to resolve that issue and taken none of them. That's their choice. I've been patient, never refusing to try to talk through the issues, never asking for anything that seemed at all unreasonable. They've refused to be reasonable. They've been greedy. They continue to steal. That is not okay. Yet the only person I continue to publicly call out singularly, despite it being a group that's truly responsible (particularly for ongoing issues), is the one who carried out the actions himself after calling me a faggot for years. He is the single greatest negative influence possible for any group or person. He convinced them to steal for crying out loud. He convinced them it was okay. Personally/individually, most of the folks in that group are not bad people. He is though. The fact that he's still there at all is a testament to how effectively he has managed to manipulate them. It isn't the first time or place he's done this type of thing either. So I want him in particular held particularly responsible.

I don't know anything about contact details having to be published on the website, but since it's all public record you can find the articles of incorporation very easily by just google searching "totem arts llc florida", which includes a mailing addresses for the LLC & officers of the LLC. There's no phone number or email contact information though, and I'd discourage asking for it, since asking for an email address some weeks ago got me banned as mentioned in my first post of the thread. Any formal legal contact though (I.e: demand letters, notices, etc) would have to be to those snail mail addresses anyways via certified mail or whatever.

It is very illuminating to see the behind the scenes interactions that happen within the community. When I started playing RenX it was fun, but even within the first few days in public lobbies the generally accepted or atleast tolerated racism/homophobia/garden variety bigotry was coming through. Like a surface level sheen that is gets worn off with a slight rub. It is a sad state for a project that was intended to be a fun game for people to enjoy in the absence of official support. I appreciate what you have done for the community, as well as many others that were/currently are still on the TA team. It is a lot of hard work, time and I know specifically in your case, money dedicated. To see those efforts hampered and shunned by other members of the team is disheartening to the project as a whole. I rarely believe anything I hear on the internet, whether I agree or not. In this case however, with all the evidence that you have presented as well as dealing with members of the community personally, it is hard to view this situation from another lens that paints Cronus positively and by extension, the whole TA team in a positive light.

It truly amazes me that someone can see all the evidence provided of blatant racism, homophobia and transphobia with obvious gaslighting about "I swear I'm not racist but them god damn n words are STEALING our jobs and RAPING our women, us whites need to control these uncivilized monkeys" or "Stop giving words power and let me call you a f*g and deadname you, stop being a tweeter snorflake 🙄🙄" preceded by "what do you mean I'm homophobic and transphobic? I just enjoy bringing back the memories of the time you were beat up, wait no, trauma doesn't exist just stop being a pussy but please do NOT bring up that time where i lost 5 epic gaming point in callers of duty 😩 i have severe ptds". @Agent I feel you're probably talking to a wall here, these 4chan epic g*mers can't understand the concept of basic human decency and respect for others. I recommend just cutting off communication and moving on. They unironically care more about a game than another human being, move on with your life and find people who'll actually respect you and not just exploit you as a means to an end rather than someone passionate about something. It's fairly unlikely that you'll be able to have any form of recourse given how they treated you in the past, you'll have to cut your losses and hopefully move on far far away from this hellhole. I'm not in the community whatsoever but I couldn't help but reply after seeing the level of brain damage at display here.

yo, what the actual fuck is wrong with people

when the forums is sus a m o g u s

Where is Renegade X?

That sounds familiar, don't pretend you didnt abuse your moderator powers when you knew there wouldn't be any repercussions. You aren't fit to moderate yourself let alone a community. If 90% of the community is glad you are gone, you have to ask yourself if you are at fault. Like the saying goes, "If someone is an asshole, they're an asshole. If everyone is an asshole, you're the asshole." Nice try getting your entire apartment block onto the dev team to support you during the takeover though, sounds like you knew this was coming all along. Was this your goal after all this time? To take complete control over the project? Is that why you tried to get your hands into all aspects of it?

You could try to run the game in Windowed mode maybe? Try changing "Fullscreen=True" to "Fullscreen=False" in C:\Program Files (x86)\Renegade X\UDKGame\Config\UDKSystemSettings.ini (or wherever RenX is installed).

Sorry Agent, you are far more mature and level headed than I am. I ultimately posted out of frustration at the current situation without knowing enough of the details. RenX has helped keep my depression largely at bay through COVID, but for the last week I've been mentally spun up by all of this fallout that I haven't been able to bring myself to log in. I know that's silly. But I appreciate your hard work, I hope my post didn't cause you stress, and I have my fingers crossed that some kind of resolution can be found soon. Thank you for your well thought out reply.

I intend to if attempts at discussion fail. You are probably correct that the apology may be dead in the water, so I'm changing approach as a final effort in discussions to hopefully something more productive and far more generous. It's very difficult however when people are not willing to engage in normal discussion, and as a result it just drags on and on and on. On a fundamental level however, I cannot possibly allow somebody to profit from my works while denying basic access to things I helped create. I feel very strongly about that. It cannot be allowed. I haven't attempted to create a new team yet, in an effort to not make resolution more difficult for all parties involved if we do come to some sort of resolution. It's the same reason other buildout is on pause. Given I essentially recruited most of team though, I don't seriously doubt my ability to create a new one -- it's more an issue of will, and I intend to exhaust every other possible option before proceeding down that path. I do think the change to new domains, if they don't intend it as a temporary measure, is kind of foolish though and may seriously injure the project in the long run. As far as permission to use assets go... they don't currently have permission to use my works, and I have yet to receive anything from anybody indicating they don't want their works used (other than Renardin, who I had zero intent of using any assets from anyways). I guess to address the jab on not being around very long, against my better judgement... The current project (RenX Multiplayer on UDK) started in 2012 (9 years ago). I was actively working on RenX related software (i.e: what has since become the server list and leaderboards and standard moderation tool for servers) since 2013 (8 years ago). I joined the team in Feb 2015 (6 years ago) based on that work, and continued to contribute to any area of the project that needed help: contributed to the launcher as the primary maintainer, built the entire website theme, reimplemented the server list, designed and implemented the leaderboards, recruited most of the team, built a moderation team since none existed (only leads had the power to ban, and generally only for hacking), wrote and implemented the entire build stack, made significant contributions to the game client, designed and implemented methods to reduce the efficacy of DDoS attacks, built most of the infrastructure for the project, shouldered every IT related cost the entire time I was around up until we started taking donations this year, created and promoted our Discord server, promoted PUGs/events, etc. etc. Prior to joining, we actually used the same host as these guys I believe, and well, yeah: http://renegadeforums.com/. After Havoc left, I was actually the longest continually active developer on the team, followed by Yosh. And it's not like it's solely me who's bothered by TA's behavior -- many developers left in part or entirely because of what happened, and more have stated they refuse to assist in any way in the future because of it. It's no longer the team or project I had recruited people to participate in, to contribute to, and that... results in losses unfortunately. There's more to the issue than literally just me.

Honestly, this feels like you're holding the domain name hostage. You were a volunteer on a project that has been in development for over fifteen years, that (I think?) you weren't a part for more than half of that time. You don't have consent to use several of the game assets, you don't have a team to continue development, you won't be able to finish anything resembling Firestorm before TA, and they have already switched over to new domain names and moved on. What are you trying to accomplish? What is your drive here? We essentially have two competing products now. One is led by a single person hoping to fork the game in a new direction under a domain name that they took management of. And then we have the original game, with the original team, the assets, the community, and the greater promise for new content on the horizon. Can you accomplish more than what has been built over the last decade? Can you do better, faster, and flashier? Because if not, then your project will fall behind, and as soon as Firestorm hits, you will lose the community that you have. And if you are doing this for some form of apology, that ship is likely gone. They didn't have any interest in doing so before the domain take over, and I can't imagine that anything will come from them now. Nor do I think that you'll be back on the beta testing server after this. So realistically, what is all of this for? They didn't go about things well on their end, and the outcome definitely sucks. I can only imagine being in your shoes. But I just don't see anything healthy coming from this.

Just one thing to do then.. ? LAWYER UP and get his thing back on the road! Set up a patreon and make it happen?

I'll support your endeavor if you disable respawn delay. Put it back to OG ren setting and you've got my vote.

Time has shown to me, that Agent is the wiser one out there. Anyway, whoever is responsible for the damage done to Agent should grow up, and apologize, and try to resolve this situation, cuz I belive that any resolution is in our mutual interest. For me, as a gamer, for the developers, and for the damaged one. This is fucking sad. 👊

I appreciate everything you did for Renegade X Agent and i'm sure many others do. What they did to you is absolutely disgusting and i did not expect them to sink this low, i know it's easier said but let this go. I don't think anything is gonna make them think differently or is gonna get an apology out of them. And i hope they will get the karma they deserve one day. Knowing how much time and everything you put into this game it hurts seeing them treat you like this.

More seriously, we are all humans. You will never get an agreement again between them and you. Too much happened. It’s really safer for mental state to move on. Believe me. I dealt with worse in the past. And I am trying to be truly honnest like always. Take care and good luck.

On the contrary this could be a good thing for the player base. There is now competition between two different versions of C&C RenX? The player base can choose the better version. It may be that a dev team can no longer ignore some of the issues : *Vehicle pathways not wide enough. Vehicle paths should be at least as wide as two mammoth tanks without assets blocking their movement. For instance, Bridges and base entrances can be too narrow causing players to get stuck, especially with the harvester forcing its way through. *Crate system unfair. Devs choose crate outcomes that players don’t like. Death crates in all their forms don’t even give the player a chance, spoiling the fun. Negative crates could instead explode dealing 25% to 60% damage or release a tiberium cloud draining health in the immediate area, giving the player a chance to escape. Crates spawning closer to the enemy base should be more strongly positive to assist fair competitive gameplay. *Score lacks transparency \ legitimate value. Why is repair score hidden? This information would be very useful to players and game balancing alike. Instead the repair score is mixed with the damage score meaning the legitimate value of that information has been lost. The RenX score system as it is might as well not be there. *Players cheat without consequence. If the enemy team is in a state of winning and players switch to that team then they get rewarded for it. Allowing players to spoil the game in this manner is unfair. Instead, if a player switches to the winning team they should be punished e.g. lock their rank to recruit for the rest of that game.

All this will succeed in doing is fracturing/killing a playerbase that's already small. Do you actually plan on putting together a team to do your own fork, or is this all just a punitive measure against Totem Arts? What if people request you remove their assets from your version?

Xnvjdsnahfsnf jcasknjjfl

After its release on January 28th 2012, we learned a lot from the feedback of the community and managed to set up priorities that were a MUST for the multiplayer release. We learned that the AI from Black Dawn was terrible and that we needed an actual AI that was capable of playing 'Command & Conquer Mode' in the multiplayer release. With all of this great tester feedback from Black Dawn and the internal multiplayer beta, we couldn't reach our 2013 deadline unfortunately and we were forced to push the release date back into 2014.

Imagine trying to kill a close low pop community